Jo Wallace

Jo Wallace is a creative executive extraordinaire, having led teams at various agencies, including Quiet Storm, Saatchi & Saatchi, and .Monks.

Alongside her career, Jo founded Good Girls Eat Dinner in 2015, a non-profit series of events to provide more visible female role models across the creative industries and beyond. In 2023, as she moved to LA she launched the ‘take out’ version AKA a podcast.

During our chat we discussed Buddhist philosophy, the need to re-invent oneself, and why creatives are actually rebels (With a cause?). After a long yapping session about the latest season of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I got to asking…

Yazad:  Hi Jo! Why the fuck did you get into advertising? 

Jo:  It's quite a boring story to be honest! As a kid, I loved reading and writing and I loved art. From when I can remember, I always enjoyed drawing things. 

After my A levels, I went on to do an art foundation course for a year where you just got to artistically play around really - and have those moments of considering being a fine artist.

At that point I started to write a lot of poetry, and then I'd put the poetry with a visual, and gradually the words got shorter and shorter until I was essentially making posters. Without knowing it.

Then, a tutor of mine on my art foundation course said, “Have you thought about advertising? You should look at this Graphic Design & Advertising degree course.” And it was one of the very few courses you could take which enabled you to specialise in the skills of being a creative in advertising.

It was around the time that advertising was going through a revolution; there was this agency that was doing really humorous and irreverent work called HHCL and Partners which was making fantastic work. My partner and I wanted to work there so kept calling them up for book crits. Near the end of our degree course we found out they had an open role for a junior team and were calling in portfolios. So we went and dropped off our book at that point they’d taken in 75 other portfolios so the competition was tough. But the next thing, they called us up, invited us for an interview and then ultimately gave us the job. Before we left college, which was unheard of. We still finished our degree but everybody kinda hated us on our course!

I'm always asking people, “Why did you get into advertising?” The common theme is that you don't really get into it; you fall into it. Did you think it was a fit immediately?

Yeah, as soon as I had a taste for being a creative in advertising, it felt so right for me. It was a perfect combination of writing, art, and psychology. My three favorite things melted into one thing. For me, I knew; “this is it.”

That was one of the things that really drew me to advertising, too. It’s a mix of everything, and I feel an advertising creative is so different from a fine arts creative.

Being a creative in advertising is essentially problem-solving - and I do love to solve a problem. 

 I like to make things or mend things. So I do enjoy when you have a client with a problem to solve and you then get to solve that problem in a very elegant, creative, and simple way. 

I think maybe that's the difference [between a fine artist.] You can't just ‘create’ some wonderful art, you've got a guardrail, and sometimes, I think those boundaries are what makes us get really creative.

And you have to be a fast learner. Especially in advertising, where you're exposed to so many different ideas and mediums, but it can also lead to burnout when you start thinking, “What am I doing? Which path am I taking?”

I think a lot of the burnout with this job is that out of every 100 ideas, often only one is going to make it out into the world. So I think there's a lot of pent-up brilliance.

Have you figured out a solve for that? 

I think the solve is doing great work for clients as often as you can but also having other creative outlets. So, for example, I’ve written and directed short films, I’ve put on exhibitions, and then I founded Good Girls Eat Dinner. I think it's finding something which is a true creative ‘calling’ and following that when you can because there you have true autonomy over your creation.

Yeah, I think that it’s so important, having something on the side that fuels us because I feel so guilty at times, doing this job, because the problems we're solving are not “real” problems, so to speak. 

I know what you mean. For many years I was working on KitKat; a fantastic brand that's got a heritage of campaign that's been going for ever (Have a Break, Have a KitKat) but getting good work out was far, far harder than it should have been at that time.

There was an element of frustration in the team. However, a few of us noticed that The National Centre for Domestic Violence was also a client that our agency had at the time. So we proactively created a campaign and took it to them. They immediately loved it - exactly as it was - and we pulled out all the stops to make it happen. It went on to win lots of awards, including a gold Cannes Lion. It goes to show what creativity can do when it’s not endlessly changed by a committee.

And you called in favors. We become so connected to people in various industries and people in various walks of life. I mean, it's kind of interesting because a lot of Gold Lion campaigns or Grand Prix campaigns are, a lot of the time, collaborations. It's not always necessarily even advertising at that point. It's like product development or sustainability goal initiatives. 

That's the cool bit when you're solving a problem at more of a source point. I think a lot of advertising people have the ability to solve a problem at a much higher level, in a much more innovative way. And it's a shame sometimes that we're just left to do the messaging on the solve that's already been decided upon. 

That’s kind of what is being said in the fishbowls as of late. Creativity is dead. 

There's a lot of things that have hit us, and so, of course, people are very tired, but out of those difficult moments I think often the most innovative thinking can occur. On a wider point, beyond just advertising; after or during a recession, is when people innovate to create new ideas, or a new business because you're kind of up against the wall. It’s almost like “shit, I need to make money, I'm going to innovate.” 

It's like that tortured artist thing. No great idea for a song or a poem or a piece of art came out of a happy, happy, happy time. It's always a strange kind of suffering that creates it.

But it's a very uncertain time because, on top of everything, now we're seeing AI come into the mix. I think that when you're constantly being told, “We'll be able to do the work of 10 creatives with one machine!” that is a bit concerning.

I mean, I think that AI is here to stay, and it's definitely only gonna get more and more intelligent and able. So, I think, as a creative in advertising, it's one of those moments where you've got to get on the train, or you will be left behind.

I think that there are different schools of thought because, for me, I think, “Okay, well, this is incredible in so many ways.” For example, when I wanted to make my films previously, the work involved in doing that was immense. I would have to find so many different people to be able to put together a shoot, location, editing etc.

I didn't have any budget ever. I just had to convince great people to make it with me - and it was so much fun.

But with AI, I could probably make a film from my laptop - or at least take care of some of the elements. Of course, there is no magic button. You still have to employ more than one platform, or tool - and understand how to do that. You still need a great idea, you still need tastemakers. You still need the people to prompt the AI. You still need to have a level of excellence, craft, and creativity to decide how you are going to shape it and where it is going to go. 

There are people who are brilliant at AI, and there are people who are brilliant at ideas, and if you can put those things together, then you're in a really great space.

But it’s already kind of causing a lot of job loss.

I'm not going to pretend it isn't going to cause some loss of jobs. It will also create jobs in other respects, or at least they'll be different. I mean, they say already that 80% of the jobs in the next 10 years, we don't even know they exist yet so that obviously makes you think, “Oh no, I'm going to have to retrain, I'm going to have to do something different,” but I think what’s important is staying up to date and developing skills.

I would say it's definitely going to reduce certain elements of work that are time-consuming, and a lot of people argue it's going to free us up to do the fun things. Or certainly, it can do the heavy lifting and then we humans can ensure the integrity of thinking and the excellence of craft and creativity of the output.

Even without AI, however, the job market is not great right now. There's talks about tariffs and budgets being slashed. It’s like blow after blow after blow. 

I mean, one thing for sure is that the news always focuses on the negative, and I like to really stay up to date with the news, but I also think it can drag you down.

As soon as I saw that Trump was going to impose tariffs, I immediately knew that it was going to impact our industry. 

I think, ultimately, it's going to come down to our ability to solve an issue. And if we fast forward to the worst scenario and the issue is “I need to earn some money, and my job is no longer there.” then it’s another problem to solve. 

I always admire people who just literally start up something else, or something different, and I'm not saying that it is easy, but sometimes I think, rather than focusing so closely on something that seemingly has no answer, sometimes you've got to look wider to what the answer might be.

In all honesty, advertising could spit any of us out tomorrow, it's always been threatened in this industry, the existence of a creative, I mean. So I guess, in some respects, it's being a bit more comfortable with the uncomfortable - because there's no changing it.

This late-stage capitalism game… 

I mean, obviously, advertising is a cog in the wheel of capitalism.

But given this is the world we’re in, you have to be like, okay, how am I gonna at least try to make a difference somehow? I do think that the power of one person can be immense, for good or for the bad. But I think what we all have is the ability to try. 

And that can be overwhelming for a person. 

What's the alternative, I suppose…

Buddhism talks about this. You know, the aim of Buddhism is to be released from this world…

And the material desires…

Which sucks because I love buying things.

Haha! But it weighs you down, too! I mean, I'm not gonna deny, I like nice things too, but I wouldn't say I'm a huge shopper…

I definitely am. I also enjoy skincare, like, why do I like that?

It's about image, no?

It's image, but, I mean, we all get old. Maybe I just enjoy being told I look young.

Same! I've got to admit that when I get ID'd - which bizarrely still happens occasionally - I think “Brilliant!” 

The vanity part is a hard one because everyone's vain to a certain point. I mean, again, we've created this. Women have been made to feel self-conscious about their looks, how they dress, what they do, and how they show up for decades and decades and decades. And now, in the last decade or two, men are getting the same treatment. So now, we're all in it. For the better or worse… 

But by supporting these industries [skincare], both as a consumer and what I do for work, I feel I am a part of the problem. Whereas there are people who say, “Advertising is what I wanted to do since I was a child.” 

There are definitely worse things to do. I mean, I've had a ball, frankly. As I came into advertising, everyone would say, “Oh, it's not what it used to be. You don't get given a Ferrari, and you don't get to just go and drink champagne endlessly anymore.” 

Looking back, I still had a pretty good time of it. Lunches and fancy parties weren't ever really a part of my world. But at least getting to go on great shoots and actually meet and learn from people who had talent and experience and true creative greatness..? In that respect, I think I was very lucky. 

Yeah, I think raw passion has been the thing that's been driving me because the parties have dried up.

But that is what I think, whether it's advertising or any other industry or passion, it is ultimately your own curiosity, and your own “I'm gonna bloody well do this,” that gets you there. I mean, I've always had an “I'll fucking show you” thing.

Like, our tutor used to play on it. He used to get us in the room and say, I don't think any of you have got what it takes. And I would think, “I'll show you,” He knew what he was doing.

I hate that tactic. I remember someone told me once, “If you’re a real copywriter, I want you to write 100 headlines in an hour, otherwise you’re not and get out,” and in my head, I was like, “Yeah, I’m not doing that.” I do like to prove people wrong, though.

But you are proving them wrong in a sense because you're thinking, “Well, that's bullshit. So I'll prove to you I can do it this way.” 

I think there's always a bit of a commonality amongst advertising creatives that they've got like the smarts to go, “Well, you think it's going to be like that, and it's actually going to be like this.” I think there's a kind of quiet rebellion within a lot of advertising creatives. On the whole, I think a lot of us are introverts because we’re thinkers.

That's probably why the mental spiraling also happens quite often.

Absolutely, yeah. It's a curse and a brilliant thing at the same time. I often joke with my wife, “wouldn't it be great to be stupid?”

But then, do I want to be that person? No. The gift of creativity, the ability to think, and the privilege to have time and the ability to think is wonderful. But yeah, you can drag yourself down if you're not careful and overthink the negatives. 

For all the overthinking, stressed creatives out there right now, do you have a life raft kind of quote or mantra? 

One that's stuck with me is “Everything that you want is on the other side of fear.” It's super true. Like, everything I've ever been afraid of, I have this tendency of forcing myself to do it. I'll be shit scared, and then I get through it, you get to the other side, and you realize, “Oh, this is kind of cool.” But if you only ever stay on the safe side or in your comfort zone, then you don't get anywhere further, or grow, and life becomes smaller and smaller and smaller.

If you push through that fear, you get to experience things that not everyone gets to - or certainly that you could have not experienced. So, I like that phrase.

I like that a lot.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity. 

Illustration by Hanna Shibata